Posts by Doug Mason

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

Doug Mason

Crazyguy,

I am not aware of the practices you describe. I would not be surprised (although I would need to see verifiable sources), given the Roman insistence on peace (Pax Romana). Constantine intervened in the trinitarian debate because Rome did not appreciate dissension.

We must not think of the "Christian Church" as a homogeneous unit. Right from its start, the Movement was ripped by dissension and disagreement. Paul's correspondence is evidence for that.

The Jerusalem Group was decimated in 70 CE, moving to Pella and likely evolving into the Ebionites. The Jews outside Jerusalem were not so badly affected and we see a spectrum of movements such as the Paulines (followers of Paul), Gnostics, and so on and on.

The Western Church (Paulines, who ultimately formed the NT Canon), were strongly represented in North Africa, particularly Carthage and Alexandria, whereas the Eastern Church formed another block. During these early centuries, up to say the 5th century, Rome was not a dominant force.

However, the bloody "Jesus Wars" of the 4th and 5th centuries in North Africa so weakened the Church that the Muslims moved into the void and Christianity moved northwards, where it became the European religion.

Do not limit the concept of the early Movements through the biased vision of the early Church Fathers.

Doug

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

Doug Mason

Magnum,

I am old and there is so much that I do not know and will never know. I write because I want to know; writing is a strict discipline that forces me to argue with myself.

I am a graduate of the University of Life, from the Faculty of Hard Knocks.

We must keep our minds active, prepared to remain open to change, to new ideas. I learn something every day that I spend writing, and my current project is teaching me so much.

We must never think that we know it all. Recognising that we do not know it all enables us to keep learning, to enjoy the excitement and challenge of discovery.

It is important to question our assumptions.

Doug

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

Doug Mason

Thanks fulltimestudent,

I am reaching the first Draft stage of a study into the first 200 years of the Jesus-followers. Yes, I know that tens of thousands of pages already exist, but a writer writes in order to learn, to understand. I also know that when people read anything, they come away with ideas and thoughts that the original writer never imagined.

I am interested in your guidance, and I shall ponder on it.

I have another most interesting quote from that same book that throws the conventional "substitutionary death" theory out the window.

Doug

18

The Divine Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord, Redeemer, and Saviour of the World

by Doug Mason in

before jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed son of god and, indeed, god incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same mediterranean world.

in fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as christian creations or even pauline inventions were already associated with caesar augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the roman empire, from 31 bce to 14 ce.. augustus was divine, son of god, god, and god from god.

he was lord, liberator, redeemer, and savior of the world—not just of italy or the mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth.

Doug Mason

Before Jesus was born or even if he had never existed—another human being was already proclaimed Son of God and, indeed, God Incarnate within the same first common-era century and within the same Mediterranean world. In fact, almost all the sacred terms and solemn titles that we might think of as Christian creations or even Pauline inventions were already associated with Caesar Augustus, the first undisputed ruler of the Roman Empire, from 31 BCE to 14 CE.

Augustus was Divine, Son of God, God, and God from God. He was Lord, Liberator, Redeemer, and Savior of the World—not just of Italy or the Mediterranean, mind you, but of the entire inhabited earth. Words like "justice" and "peace," "epiphany" and "gospel," "grace" and "salvation" were already associated with him. Even "sin" and "atonement" were connected to him as well. …

All those assertions, terms, and titles were at home within Roman imperial theology and incarnated in Caesar the Augustus before they ever appeared in Pauline Christian theology and were incarnated in Jesus the Christ. (The First Paul: Reclaiming the Radical Visionary Behind the Church’s Conservative Icon, pages 93, 94, by Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan, HarperOne 2009)

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Doug Mason

Perry,

Rather than work through the many issues one by one, I invite you to wait for a short until I commence a thread, naming it: "The Jesus-movements' First 200 Years".

Doug

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Doug Mason

Perry,

While you complain about the way that the Watchtower modifies the text of the Bible to suit its own beliefs, this is exactly what the NT writers also did when they referenced their own religious writings. There was no canon of Hebrew Scriptures at the time (hence the many times they cited texts such as 1 Enoch).

When you look at "heresies" (opinions) through the eyes of the Church Fathers, you are reading only their opinions. One person's "orthodoxy" is another person's "heresy".

It is simply an accident of history that the Paulines became the state religion and were thus able to determine that their writings would form Scripture. The bulk of the NT is made up of wriitngs by Paul, by people who pretended to be Paul, and by people who supported Paul. Little survives from the supporters of the Jerusalem Church (such as Matthew and James). Although Peter was a leader at Jerusalem, little is known of him, while 1 Peter and 2 Peter were written by Paulines decades after Peter's death. Likewise, the Gospels were written many decades after the events they describe, and some owe their thoughts to Paul.

Doug

20

WT Article - David Versus Goliath—Did It Really Happen?

by ttdtt in

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no5-2016-september/david-versus-goliath-real/.

the article ends with this:.

there is no real basis for doubting the truthfulness of this historical account.

Doug Mason

The writers were not recording literal histroy. They were wrapping religious teachings within a story (parables). This is a simple and effective method for teaching people because they were illiterate. Because they relied on oral communication, a story provided the excellent vehicle for memorising the lessons being taught. A prime example of this is the myth of the Exodus. It provided the vehicle for enshrining religious ideas that were contemporary with the time the events were being written (some 600 years after the "Moses event").

Doug

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Doug Mason

Village Idiot,

I see Apostle Paul as that "charismatic leader".

His determination, his arrogance, and his drive created a world-wide movement. Jesus never stepped outside Galilee, except to visit Jerusalem. Jesus was of the country; Paul was a city man.

Doug

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Doug Mason

Hi Cofty,

You ask whether there was a person named "Jesus" (actually "Joshua"/Yeshua).

Perhaps we should ask whether the significance of Jesus is the outcome of the creative imaginings of one person - Apostle Paul. His followers decided which writings were scripture and it is no surprise that his writings dominate, including those gospels which show their allegiance to Paul. Many say that Paul invented Christianity, but I feel that this might be a stretch too far, inasmuch as Paul was persecuting Jews in Damascus who were aligned to the Jewish sect of "Jesus" (Yeshua).

Nevertheless, inasmuch as Paul's writings are the earliest, his inventive ideas on matters such as baptism and the eucharist are fundamental to subsequent Christianity,

The person who provides the significant interpretation of Paul is a Benedictine Monk of the 11th century named Anselm. Now, I could be quite wrong here (not the first or last time), but my understanding is that for Augustine, salvation related to the group. In other words, God was saving Israel as a nation. My understanding is that Anselm turned that idea on its head and said that salvation relates to the individual. Hence his ideas align with subsequent Protestantism. I say this with the caution that my current understanding needs some intense research and thinking.

Doug

35

Born Twice - Die Once .... Born Once - Die Twice

by Perry in

jesus taught that we must die unto ourselves, and allow the holy spirit to take up residence within us.

some people get saved by simply inviting jesus into their hearts, to be the lord of their life.

this serves as a countering force within the born-again christian to counterbalance the will of the flesh, which is still unsaved in this life and destined for destruction in imitation of our lord himself.. attempting to live the christian life without having this spirit within you is a waste of time at the minimum, and dangerous on the downside.

Doug Mason

Rather than reveal what Jesus actually said (he could not write), each Gospel reveals the theology of its writer(s).

Probably the closest to the actual teachings of Jesus comes from the document attributed to James, his brother. Although the NT is a compilation of documents by followers of Paul, they included James because of his direct relationship with Jesus and because James was the Jerusalem leader, having taken over from Peter at a very early stage. James was followed by another of Jesus' relatives, Symeon. Paul, of course was completely at loggerheads with the Jerusalem leadership.

This mystical idea of divine illumination (Christ in you, etc), was picked up by the Gnostics. The Paulines did not include any of the Gnostic writings, thereby providing an unbalanced picture of the primitive church. Acts (of the Apostles) is a religious invention created for political purposes. Several other Acts were written, some have survived.

Doug